Writers Talk Money - Jess Lourey and Shannon Baker

Terri Bischoff

 

This week - a guest post by Jess Lourey and Shannon Baker:

 

“I don’t really like talking about money. All I can say is that the Good Lord must have really wanted me to have it.” –Larry Bird

That’s two more things Larry Bird and I don’t have in common. I love talking about money, and the Good Lord has yet to get around to dousing me with it (I await patiently). I know talking about money is supposed to be tacky, and apologies to you if you’re in that camp because that’s exactly what Shannon Baker, author of the latest Kate Fox mystery, Dark Signal, and me, author of the recently-released humorous mystery March of Crime, are here today to talk with you about.  (Shannon here: Yikes! Jess is yanking me so far out of my comfort zone my repression shorts are chafing me.)

  

Shannon, do you remember how much your first advance check was for?

Shannon: It’s like sex, you always remember your first time. You ought to sit down, because this will shock you. My first advance was for Ashes of the Red Heifer, a thriller I published with L&L Dreamspell in 2010.  It was $200. That’s two hundred whole dollars. I went back and asked them to please make it $250 because then I would qualify for the published author’s group for Rocky Mountain Fiction Writers.  They graciously did.

Jess: So that stereotype about all writers being rich is obviously true. My first advance was $1500 for May Day, my 2006 inaugural Murder-by-Month mystery, and I tell you what, I would have sold that book for $10, that’s how happy I was to be offered a publishing contract. Why you think writers are so loathe to talk about how much (little) we make? Wouldn’t having that information help us to be better negotiators?

Shannon: It’s like if you ask a rancher how big his ranch is. He’ll likely say, “Big enough to run the cows I have.” Ask how many cows he owns, and he’ll tell you, “Enough to eat the grass I’ve got.”  For writers, it’s probably two-fold: shame, because if pay reflects quality we don’t want people to think we aren’t valued very highly, or, self-preservation, because if you’re making a bunch, everyone expects you to pick up the bar tab.

Then there’s just natural squeamishness. I mean, in polite company, you don’t ask a stranger at a dinner party how much they earn. If they’re a doctor or teacher, you put some clues together and ball park it. With writers, though, there’s no ball park. It’s a vast wilderness.

Jess: That is so dang true. Well said. Can I ask what your biggest writing check to date has been?

Shannon: *Gulp* I just… well. Sorry. I feel comfortable saying my latest contract was five figures.  It is not enough to live on, especially when you factor that a good chunk of that went right back into promotion and conferences.

Jess: Fair enough. I received a $11,517 royalty check in 2012 for my Murder-by-Month mysteries. That was fantastic and unexpected. The highest advance I’ve ever received was $6000 for Salem’s Cipher, and it’s my understanding that that’s a pretty standard advance for midlist authors such as myself. Or am I lowlist? Today, I’m just lowbrow.

Shannon, how much do you think a writer needs to make, and for how long, before they can quit their day job?

Shannon: I never imagined I’d make money from writing. Like you with your first book, Jess, I just wanted someone to offer me a contract. With every book, every contract, I get a little more successful, my expectations rise, and I take the money side of the business more seriously. I am lucky enough to be aged-out of the day job so I can keep writing AND eating.

Jess: Yep, I need a sugar daddy. But I would prefer to be a sugar momma. I refinanced my house in 2013 so I could afford to take a year off and write full-time. Based on that experiment, I’d calculate that I’d need to make $60,000 a year for three years, plus have that much in savings, before I could risk quitting the day job, at least while I still have kids living at home.

How about you, dear readers? Do you see full-time writing in your future, and if so, do you have an income threshold you’d need to meet before you’d be willing to quit your day job?

Please join Shannon and Jessie as they continue their blog tour. They will each be giving away three books this tour, and every comment you leave at a blog stop gets you one chance to win. For another chance to win a book, sign up for Jess and/or Shannon’s newsletters on their websites (links below).

Jess Lourey (rhymes with "dowry") is best known for her critically-acclaimed Murder-by-Month mysteries, which have earned multiple starred reviews from Library Journal and Booklist, the latter calling her writing "a splendid mix of humor and suspense." She is a tenured professor of creative writing and sociology, a regular Psychology Today blogger, a sought-after workshop leader and keynote speaker who delivered the 2016 "Rewrite Your Life" TEDx Talk, and the author of Rewrite Your Life, the only book out there which shows you how to turn your facts into healing, page-turning fiction. You can find out more at www.jessicalourey.com

 

 

 

 

Shannon Baker is the author of the Kate Fox mystery series (Tor/Forge). Set in the isolated cattle country of the Nebraska Sandhills, Kirkus says, “Baker serves up a ballsy heroine, a colorful backdrop, and a surprising ending.” She also writes the Nora Abbott mystery series (Midnight Ink), featuring Hopi Indian mysticism and environmental issues. Shannon makes her home in Tucson where she enjoys cocktails by the pool, breathtaking sunsets, a crazy Weimeraner, and killing people (in the pages of her books). She was voted Rocky Mountain Fiction Writer’s 2014 Writer of the Year. Visit Shannon at www.Shannon-Baker.com

Comments

[Shannon Baker]

This is really funny because recently I was on a panel at Colorado Gold Conference in Denver with a group of dynamic, successful women. The Indie-pubbed lot coughed up numbers and I was so shocked when one said she'd earned $17,000 on her first novel, I announced my last contract numbers. Of course, we'd had a couple of mimosas beforehand and the moderator gave us all a shot of carmel sea salt whiskey. Interesting panel.

[Shannon Baker]

On another aside, Close Enough, my Kate Fox short story bridging Stripped Bare and Dark Signal, released today. .99 on all digital outlets. This link is for kobo https://tinyurl.com/yc8sgeo9

[Jess Lourey]

Tell me more about this whiskey...

[Terri Bischoff]

Clearly this whiskey makes you tell all. I think we need to find some of it and have a party! ;)

[Shannon Baker]

I tried with all my low-tech might to post the pic here but alas. It's called Old Smokey and it's made in Gatlinburg TN. It's so delicious. They say you can only get it there. I'm not sure I believe them.

[Aimee Hix]

Yes, do tell us more about the caramel sea salt whiskey. I might be willing to try that even though I'm not a whisky fan.

As for what it would take to get me to quit my day job, it was less how much money I would make as a writer because I was warned it wouldn't be much (and compared to my former day job it is officially a pittance) and more about how much stress and misery I could continue to take, which was 'not a damn bit more' as of June 2015.

I'm happy now so I'm richer no matter what.

[Suzanne]

I once I had a good chunk of cash saved up and was extremely burned out on the day job, so I took about six months off to write. It was a disaster! I had an identity crisis. It turns out I derive most of my entire sense of self and self-worth from the success of that day job. Suddenly not having that constant validation to hold me up as I entered the scary wilderness of Being A Writer left me an anxious and utterly unproductive mess. I spent most of my "writing time" cleaning my house and checking my bank account and panicking that I'd never be able to restart my other career.

[Jess Lourey]

YES

[Jess Lourey]

I want it. I want it in my mouth.

[Jess Lourey]

Well said. But more importantly, how close are you to Tennessee?

[Shannon Baker]

'Cause there's no stress and misery in the writing world?

[Marla Bradeen]

Thank you for sharing your advance and royalty figures. I had no clue. And, wow, Shannon. Great negotiating on your part to get a 25% increase on your very first advance! While technically I'm writing full-time (I always laugh saying that, since it's a rare week when I'm motivated enough to put in 40 hours), I'm making nowhere near what I did when I had a day job. In fact, this will be the first year since I started publishing in 2013 that I'll make five figures. Low, low, low five figures, but still! But having opted for cats instead of kids, I don't have a family to support and cost of living is low where I live, so I'm lucky enough that low, low, low five figures is pretty close to what I need to pay my bills. And yeah, Shannon, it's impressive what some of the indies are pulling in. Some of them work crazy hard though. In my case, I quit the day job because I didn't want to work long hours anymore, so I'm okay with making less if it means having lots of free time too. I think that's part of the beauty of being an author. You can make your career into whatever you want it to be.

[Shannon Baker]

Suzanne, I totally understand this. I quit work not by choice so much, but because I lost my job and wasn't so motivated to get another for the two years before my husband retired. Still, I had such guilt for writing and not earning. I got over that, thank dog!

[Shannon Baker]

Those indies do work hard. And like you, I'm not interested in working like that. They're impressive, though.

[Stephanie Gayle]

Thanks for sharing this. I do wish more authors talked about what they earned and about how much they are expected to pay for marketing materials, travel costs, etc. Think it would lay waste to the idea that all writers can support themselves writing.

[Jess Lourey]

Suzanne, that makes so much sense. Having the constraints of a job creates structure and for sure self-worth if it's the right kind of job. Many people I know write best within that kind of structure.

[Jess Lourey]

Well said, Marla! You are an inspiration with your priorities.

[Jess Lourey]

Or even a small portion of writers, from what I understand. Sigh. When I first got started, back in 2006, a writer told me that if I had a choice between writing and setting all my money on fire as a career, I'd make more money setting all my money on fire. :)

[Jess Lourey]

Thank you to everyone who has stopped by and commented! All who have commented above will be entered to win one of six free books to be given away. Every comment on the blog tour is a chance to win: http://jessicalourey.com/events/lourey-baker-double-booked-blog-tour-ii, and comments can be left at any of those stops through October 12.

[Aimee Hix]

Closer than you are which still isn’t very close. There is this new thing called the Internet we might could use.

[Aimee Hix]

Shannon,
I just to be a contractor for the federal government and now I work for Terri. So, nope, no stress in this part of writer world. 😁

[Susan]

Caramel salt whiskey is distracting me, but in answer to the question about quitting your day job, I decided I needed $x in the bank so I wouldn't be a bag lady if my fiction writing career tanked. That made it easier for me to climb ever so slowly toward a decent advance+royalties goal. Every year, every contract, it gets a bit better but the only way I can pick up the bar tab is with the money I put in the bank before quitting the day job.

[Linda Herold]

Love your reference to basketball. I am a huge Sacramento Kings fan , but I think players are highly over paid. As a special education teacher, I can relate to a writer's pay check!!

[Shannon Baker]

Hey, Marla! You won a Dark Signal on Femmes Fatales but there was no way to reply to you there. Can you send me your address so I can mail you a book? www.shannon-baker.com

[Shannon Baker]

HI Linda! You are the lucky (I hope you feel that way) winner of Dark Signal. If you'll send me your address via email at www.shannon-baker.com, I'll wing a book your way.